January 09, 2007
This issue can now be closed, as Devastate has been buffed/fixed/improved in 2.0.3. Enjoy!



Added Note: Devastate IS Normalized! Read post #113 (pg 6) for information.

The following is an honest look at realistic values for Warriors who will be choosing to use the 41-point talent Devastate. When I began doing the math, I did not think that Devastate would be great, certainly not as good as my findings lead me to believe; Kenco's recent post was the nail in the coffin. The following assumes Devastate is not normalized; if it is, it will substantially increase DPS for faster weapons -- which is good. If any of the following math is incorrect (I am no math major), feel free to correct it here or through my gmail account, Ciderhelm@gmail.com.

Summary of the findings:
Devastate scales well with Attack Power and Critical Strike rating.

*With standard Blizzard itemization and raid buffs, an average Warrior will have 1200 Attack Power and 15% Critical Strike rating in a raid and similar numbers in small-parties where they will be wearing more DPS-oriented gear.
*Tier of gear does not matter, as Blizzard has itemized Might, Wrath and Dreadnaught similarly with Attack Power. Avoidance tanks who focus on Agility may have substantially higher Critical Strike rating, which would compensate for lower Attack Power.

Devastate can produce more Threat-Per-Second than Sunder Armor regardless of Weapon Speed.

*Devastate is a worthy replacement to Sunder Armor in it's current state. Due to the current wording of the ability, as Kenco pointed out, it may not even be giving it's potential threat bonus at the moment; if Blizzard alters this, it will be even better.
*A Protection Warrior should not skip this talent for any reason, just as a Protection Warrior should not be avoiding Shield Slam for any reason.

Devastate, combined with Heroic Strike, used with slower weapons produces moderately lower Threat-Per-Second to very fast weapons, but is considerably more rage efficient. Slow and fast weapons provide unique benefits.

*In infinite rage environments, Heroic Strike tanking is still important, and the fastest weapons are still simply more powerful. If you wish to know why I believe Heroic Strike tanking is critical, read the portion of Hold the Line in my signature.
*Faster weapons cost significantly more rage but provide more stability in tanking; misses are less likely to affect aggro generation. In some cases, faster weapons provide more overall damage and Threat-Per-Second, when using Revenge and Shield Slam.
*Slower weapons are more rage efficient, particularly as off-tanks, while solo-grinding, and while doing smaller instances where rage is more of a problem.
*Slower weapons can have nearly double the chance to proc PPM enchants such as Crusader due to the calculation mechanics for proc-per-minute.

Devastate, in a limited rage environment and using Shield Slam, provides substantially more Threat-Per-Second than Warriors are currently capable of.

*When Heroic Strike is not available due to rage conditions, Devastate makes Warrior threat generation increase dramatically over pre-Devastate options such as Sunder Armor.
*Slow weapons will make the most use out of these environments by far.

Devastate does not replace Heroic Strike, Shield Slam, or Revenge, it augments them.

*Devastate does not produce more Threat-Per-Second than Shield Slam under any circumstance.
*In situations where Revenge is up, it is both more rage-efficient and more threat. Generally, Revenge will deal less Damage-Per-Second than Devastate, and Devastate can be used in it's place to meet DPS minimums.

Devastate provides a substantial increase to DPS regardless of Weapon Speed.

*This helps for every tanking situation. Solo'ing and small instances will have a dramatic impact; raid environments will see just as dramatic an increase. In some cases, DPS will go up more than 90 on average, even while using Shield Slam and Revenge cooldowns.
*Heroic Strike balances the increased DPS from Devastate for faster weapons.

The Bottom Line: Devastate with even moderate gear will always be worth getting and will always be more beneficial than Sunder Armor. Period. However, slow Weapon Speed weapons are not necessarily best; in high-rage situations such as tanking, Heroic Strike tanking with the fastest weapons is still superior. In low-rage situations where Heroic Strike is not always available, slow Weapon Speed weapons are heavily favored.



The Assumptions
First, I have long held that Attack Power and Strength are important parts of being a tank and that is the reason that Blizzard has itemized tanking items the way they have. Both "Miles to Go" and "Hold the Line" hold this as critical. Thus, I believe 1200 Attack Power is relatively easy to obtain in a raid environment for a tank who has itemized normally.

Second, I have also long held that Heroic Strike is important. I believe it would be dishonest to put forth an argument about the Threat-Per-Second with Devastate as it relates to Weapon Speed without also including the Threat-Per-Second gained from Heroic Strike, since that also relies on Weapon Speed.

Third, all math assumes an infinite-rage environment. This is why Heroic Strike is included, as in most raid tanking situations this will be possible. This means that if you are an off-tank or main-tanking something other than raid bosses, slower Weapons gain a massive advantage over faster weapons. This is logical and common-sense based, so while I will share Rage Efficiencies, I will leave it to the reader to balance their weapon speed based on their actual tanking environments.

Fourth, this entire process for me began with only a single question -- is Devastate a worthy replacement to Sunder Armor? Too often I have read from other posters, "Devastate does damage so it doesn't need as high of threat as Sunder Armor!"

Fifth, nearly all other findings were unexpected, and preconceptions I had regarding how Weapon Speed would affect tanking were actually significantly off-base once I threw in Heroic Strike values. This is meant to provide the full picture, so to speak, to give you (and myself) an idea of how we are going to function as tanks with an ability that is so different from every other ability.

Finally, feel free to criticize or correct any math; I am no math major. I seek specifically to find the right answers, and if you are able to refute the following I will be thankful for it. Also, the below assumes that Devastate is not normalized -- if it is, it will benefit faster weapons heavily. Contact me here or through my e-mail, Ciderhelm@gmail.com for any revisions.

Laying the Groundwork (Thanks to Kenco)
The first step is setting up the rules for the following.

1) Threat modifiers will not be used. Stance, Defiance, or any other modifer is not considered.

2) The tank is assumed to have Focused Rage. The tank is assumed to have max-ranked abilities. Since this is based on Level 60 tanking, the tank is assumed not to have Imp Heroic Strike, replacing that in favor of Deflection and Cruelty. Imp Heroic Strike will increase rage efficiency noticeably for fast Weapon Speed. The tank is also assumed not to have set bonuses such as the Revenge bonus from 2-piece Dreadnaught, the rage-reduction of Wrath, or the increased threat from Sunder from Might.

3) The following assumes a fully sundered mob will have 20% Armor Reduction. This seems to be accurate for most mobs, and is also the number Kenco chose to use.

4) The following considers Critical Strike to provide a passive +15% damage taken into consideration before armor reduction for Devastate and Heroic Strike. As a cautionary note: Critical Strike is not reliable for burst aggro gains; however, the assumption is that you have an aggro lock by the point of having a fully sundered mob.

5) All damage ranges for weapon damage and abilities are averaged through A + B / 2 = Damage.

6) Attack Power and Critical Strike from each weapon is applied in addition to the base values of our Warrior. +Hit and +Parry, although they affect DPS, are not used for any equations and are listed under the weapon Bonuses.

7) All damage equations round down to be conservative. There may be slightly more damage or threat from any given equation than listed.


The next step, then, is laying the groundwork for Threat Values:
Sunder Armor -- 260
Devastate -- 47
Heroic Strike 9 --175 (+157 Damage)
Revenge -- 315 (+162 Damage)
Shield Slam -- 250 (+450 Damage)


Then we need to determine realistic values of our Warrior:
1200 Attack Power*
15% Critical Strike
450 Dmg Shield Slam**
*This assumes normal gear, Battle Shout, and basic buffs in terms of totems, blessings, paw, or consumables.
**This has little effect on the following math other than helping provide a ballpark DPS you should be reaching with Devastate.


Finally, let's pick our set of weapons. I am using this many weapons so Warriors of different gear and progression levels can get a feel for their choices in the next patch and in The Burning Crusade.

Bloodlord's Defender
91.5 Damage, 1.9 Weapon Speed
Bonus: 80 Armor, 15 Stamina, 4 Defense


Spineshatter
141.5 Damage, 2.6 Weapon Speed
Applied: 18 Attack Power
Bonus: 16 Stamina, 5 Defense


Maladath
124 Damage, 2.2 Weapon Speed
Bonus: 1 Parry, 4 Swords


Crul'shorukh
144.5 Damage, 2.3 Weapon Speed
Applied: 36 Attack Power
Bonus: 13 Stamina


Widow's Remorse
100.5 Damage, 1.6 Weapon Speed
Bonus: 1% Hit, 17 Stamina, 100 Armor


Castigator*
170 Damage, 2.6 Weapon Speed
Applied: 16 Attack Power, 1% Critical Strike
Bonus: 9 Stamina, 1% Hit
*Castigator is similar to the Hatchet of the Sundered Bone; Hatchet will produce slightly higher threat.


The Hungering Cold
109.5 Damage, 1.5 Weapon Speed
Bonus: 14 Stamina, 140 Armor, 6 Swords


Gressil
197.5 Damage, 2.7 Weapon Speed
Applied: 40 Attack Power
Bonus: 15 Stamina

Question 1: Will Devastate outperform Sunder Armor in Threat?
Test 1: Will this work even with the least-suited weapons?
The first thing we need to do is determine whether Devastate outperforms Sunder Armor in terms of threat generation with epic tanking weapons. We will use the lowest-damage weapon, the Bloodlord's Defender, and the fastest weapon with a low damage range, Widow's Remorse, to determine threat generation vs. Sunder Armor.

Bloodlord's Defender
With Attack Power = 91.5 + (1.9 * 1200 / 14) = 254
Devastate Damage Bonus = 254 * 0.5 = 127 + 125 = 252
Critical Strike Modifier = 252 * 1.15 = 290
Armor Reduction = 290 * 0.8 = 231

Unmodified Threat = 231 + 47 = 278
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260

With a the first major epic weapon a tank can acquire, as well as being a weapon built around mitigation stats, a tank is adding 4% threat over Sunder Armor while also dealing 231 damage per use.

Now, let's see how an incredibly fast weapon with a relatively low damage range holds up:

Widow's Remorse
With Attack Power = 100.5 + (1.6 * 1200 / 14) = 237
Devastate Damage Bonus = 237 * 0.5 = 118 + 125 = 243
Critical Strike Modifier = 252 * 1.15 = 280
Armor Reduction = 280 * 0.8 = 224

Unmodified Threat = 224 + 47 = 271
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260

Devastate appears to be advantageous over Sunder Armor even for the fastest available weapons with basic stats. Before you get worried that the difference between Devastate and Sunder is so small with a fast weapon, keep in mind that you are able to use Heroic Strike at a much faster rate -- which is what we'll cover next.

Result 1: Devastate outperforms Sunder Armor with weapons least suited to an ability based off Weapon Speed.


Test 2: Just how big is the disparity?
Now let's cover the slower weapons and see what kind of damage range we get with Devastate. We will begin with a comparison of Crul'shorukh and Spineshatter.

Crul'shorukh
With Attack Power = 144.5 + (2.3 * 1236 / 14) = 347
Devastate Damage Bonus = 347 * 0.5 = 173 + 125 = 298
Critical Strike Modifier = 298 * 1.15 = 342
Armor Reduction = 342 * 0.8 = 274

Unmodified Threat = 274 + 47 = 321
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260

Devastate from Crul'shorukh produces 19% more threat than Sunder Armor.

Spineshatter
With Attack Power = 141.5 + (2.6 * 1218 / 14) = 367
Devastate Damage Bonus = 367 * 0.5 = 183 + 125 = 308
Critical Strike Modifier = 308 * 1.15 = 354
Armor Reduction = 354 * 0.8 = 283

Unmodified Threat = 283 + 47 = 330
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260

Devastate from Spineshatter, a slower weapon with good mitigation stats, provides 23% more threat than Sunder Armor. Don't take too much from the comparison to the Crul'shorukh -- remember, the Crul will deal considerably more damage through Heroic Strike due to the faster speed. However, in a low-rage scenario, Spineshatter -- a basic weapon from the first boss in Blackwing Lair -- is not bad.

Now, for fun:
Castigator
With Attack Power = 170 + (2.6 * 1216 / 14) = 395
Devastate Damage Bonus = 395 * 0.5 = 183 + 125 = 322
Critical Strike Modifier = 308 * 1.16 = 374
Armor Reduction = 374 * 0.8 = 299

Unmodified Threat = 299 + 47 = 346
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260
Devastate with Castigator is 29% more effective than Sunder Armor.


Gressil
With Attack Power = 197.5 + (2.7 * 1240 / 14) = 436
Devastate Damage Bonus = 436 * 0.5 = 218 + 125 = 343
Critical Strike Modifier = 343 * 1.15 = 394
Armor Reduction = 394 * 0.8 = 315

Unmodified Threat = 315 + 47 = 362
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260
Devastate with Gressil is 39% more effective than Sunder Armor.

Result 2: Devastate scales incredibly well against Sunder Armor even with weapons already in-game.

Now, to get some other values out of the way for future use. Here is Maladath and The Hungering Cold:

Maladath
With Attack Power = 125 + (2.2 * 1200 / 14) = 313
Devastate Damage Bonus = 313 * 0.5 = 156 + 125 = 281
Critical Strike Modifier = 281 * 1.15 = 323
Armor Reduction = 252 * 0.8 = 258

Unmodified Threat = 258 + 47 = 305
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260


The Hungering Cold
With Attack Power = 109.5 + (1.5 * 1200 / 14) = 238
Devastate Damage Bonus = 238 * 0.5 = 119 + 125 = 244
Critical Strike Modifier = 244 * 1.15 = 280
Armor Reduction = 280 * 0.8 = 224

Unmodified Threat = 224 + 47 = 271
Unmodified Sunder Armor Threat: 260


Summary: Devastate is better than Sunder Armor for a raid tank no matter what, and can be significantly so if you continue to raise your Attack Power and Critical Strike rating.

Question 2: How does Devastate stack with Sunder in terms of overall sustained Threat-Per-Second (TPS) and Damage-Per-Second (DPS)?
The following uses a 31.5 second cycle where a tank uses his Shield Slam and Revenge ability as priority over Devastate and uses them each time they are up; it also presumes a 1.5 second global cooldown. Since a Warrior can use 5 Shield Slams and 6 Revenges during this period, that means 16.5 seconds are used by these abilities. The reamining 15 seconds allow the Warrior to apply either Devastate or Sunder Armor. Keep in mind that on fights with DPS minimums such as Loatheb, Patchwerk, or Thaddius, the Warrior may be replacing Revenge with Devastate for additional damage.

The following is Sustained, Average TPS & DPS over the course of an encounter. It should be relatively accurate, and will increase as a Warrior increases Attack Power or Critical Strike rating. Since Sunder Armor represents 0 DPS, everything gained through Devastate is a pure gain.


Sunder Armor Threat: 260 * 10 = 2600 / 31.5 = 82.53 TPS
Sunder Armor Damage: 0

Bloodlord's Defender Threat: 278 * 10 = 2780 / 31.5 = 88.25 TPS
Bloodlord's Defender Damage: 231 * 10 = 2310 / 31.5 = 73.33 DPS

Spineshatter Threat: 330 * 10 = 3300 / 31.5 = 104.76 TPS
Spineshatter Damage: 283 * 10 = 2830 / 31.5 = 89.84 DPS

Maladath Threat: 305 * 10 = 3050 / 31.5 = 96.82 TPS
Maladath Damage: 258 * 10 = 2580 / 31.5 = 81.90 DPS

Crul'shorukh Threat: 321 * 10 = 3210 / 31.5 = 101.9 TPS
Crul'shorukh Damage: 274 * 10 = 2740 / 31.5 = 86.98 DPS

Widow's Remorse Threat: 271 * 10 = 2710 / 31.5 = 86.03 TPS
Widow's Remorse Damage: 224 * 10 = 2240 / 31.5 = 71.11 DPS

Castigator Threat: 346 * 10 = 3460 / 31.5 = 109.84 TPS
Castigator Damage: 299 * 10 = 2990 / 31.5 = 94.92 DPS

The Hungering Cold Threat: 271 * 10 = 2710 / 31.5 = 86.03 TPS
The Hungering Cold Damage: 224 * 10 = 2240 / 31.5 = 71.11 DPS

Gressil Threat: 362 * 10 = 3620 / 31.5 = 114.92 TPS
Gressil Damage: 315 * 10 = 3150 / 31.5 = 100 DPS

Next, let's determine the TPS and DPS of the Revenge and Shield Slams and add them to a ranking of weapons by these values. There will be 6 Revenge & 5 Shield Slam uses.

Revenge Damage
(162 * 1.15 * 0.8) * 6 / 31.5 = 28.38 DPS

Revenge Threat
315 + (162 * 1.15 * 0.8) * 6 / 31.5 = 88.38 TPS


Shield Slam Damage
(450 * 1.15 * 0.8) * 5 / 31.5 = 65.71 DPS

Shield Slam Threat
250 + (450 * 1.15 * 0.8) * 5 / 31.5 = 105.39 TPS


Additional note:
There will be a slight deviation in the above values due to two factors. First, Revenge is on a 5-second cooldown but cannot be used every 5 seconds without sacrificing a partial cooldown (0.5 sec) and using one less Devastate. The other, more efficient option is to use Devastate and push Revenge slightly later, which would alter the DPS and TPS values slightly because there would be fewer overall Revenge uses. Also, the second alteration to these numbers is simple: human players experience server lag. The above numbers would be realistic for a computer; due to human conditions, you may see up to a 2-3% reduction in performance. Due to both of these factors, there will be a very small reduction to overall DPS and TPS in an actual raid environment. Keep in mind that, when covering Heroic Strikes, they are not subject to either of the above conditions and are not affected by server lag.

Next, let's determine the normal melee damage of each weapon to give an accurate ranking of DPS and TPS without Heroic Strike. This is determined by using the charts in Test 1 and Test 2; I am running the same calculations but skipping the Devastate Damage Bonus step, then getting the DPS through Weapon Speed.

Bloodlord's Defender = 122.98
Spineshatter = 129.86
Maladath = 130.89
Crul'shorukh = 138.8
Widow's Remorse = 136.27
Castigator = 139.76
The Hungering Cold = 145.97
Gressil = 148.56


Ranking Pre-Heroic, using Shield Slam, Revenge, and Devastate*

1. Gressil (TPS 457.25, DPS 342.65)
2. Castigator (TPS 443.37, DPS 328.77)
3. Crul'shorukh (TPS 434.47, DPS 319.87)
4. Spineshatter (TPS 428.39, DPS 313.79)
5. The Hungering Cold (TPS 425.77, DPS 311.17)
6. Maladath (TPS 421.48, DPS 306.88)
7. Widow's Remorse (TPS 416.07, DPS 301.47)
8. Bloodlord's Defender (TPS 405, DPS 290.4)

*The above list is an accurate list of desirability in low-rage situations where you cannot use Heroic Strike. These weapons would be best suited to off-tanks or secondary tanks.


For your own reference:
The Rage-Per-Second to sustain the above 6 Revenge, 5 Shield Slams, and 10 Devastates, assuming Focused Rage, will be:

((2 * 6(Revenge)) + (5 * 17(Shield Slam)) + (12 x 10(Devastate))) / 31.5 = 6.88 (repeating, of course)



End of the Line for Fast Weapons? Think Again!
I could (and, in hindsight, maybe should) have left the topic at Devastate > Sunder. But there is one itching question -- should Warriors be changing from fast Weapon Speed weapons to slow ones? Hell, this is the #1 question that was on MY mind, because I generally abuse the hell out of Heroic. Every chart and math equation I've done was a buildup of evidence to help answer this question:

How does Heroic Strike tanking affect our choice of weapons now that a seemingly opposite ability has been implemented? What should a Main Tank specced for infinite rage be looking at?

So here it is, in finality, with all factors included from Weapon Speed to cooldowns to Shield Slams to Revenge to Critical Strikes to Armor reduction...

The Ultimate Main Tanking Weapon Order

1. The Hungering Cold (TPS 638.73, DPS 407.46)
2. Widow's Remorse (TPS 615.72, DPS 391.745)
3. Gressil (TPS 575.56, DPS 396.14)
4. Crul'shorukh (TPS 573.35, DPS 382.67)
5. Bloodlord's Defender (TPS 573.12, DPS 366.42)
6. Maladath (TPS 566.68, DPS 372.53)
7. Castigator (TPS 566.23, DPS 384.32)
8. Spineshatter (TPS 551.25, DPS 369.34)

At some point I really should throw Julie's Dagger or Eskhandar's Right Claw into this just for kicks...

[Reserved in case I add in more crazy stuff like rage efficiencies]

First. Excellent guide Cider =)

/applaud.

Nice post, interesting look at TPS..

Also where is thunderfury on that list! Haha that would be a challenge to figure out the TPS for it.. if you're going to try it, keep in mind the proc only does 270 dmg in def stance, and that the proc itself generates some sort of very minor aggro.

Hrm, thank you very much for all of your work.

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Q u o t e:
Nice post, interesting look at TPS..

Also where is thunderfury on that list! Haha that would be a challenge to figure out the TPS for it.. if you're going to try it, keep in mind the proc only does 270 dmg in def stance, and that the proc itself generates some sort of very minor aggro.

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I have a Thunderfury and TRUST ME I want to know. But holy heavens it was hard enough to get this all done. =p I'm going to get that done as soon as I can, I just have to figure out where to plug in the values!

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Q u o t e:
Hell, this is the #1 question that was on MY mind, because I generally abuse the hell out of Heroic. Every chart and math equation I've done was a buildup of evidence to help answer this question:

How does Heroic Strike tanking affect our choice of weapons now that a seemingly opposite ability has been implemented? What should a Main Tank specced for infinite rage be looking at?

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If everything here is right, it basically confirms the skill as a sunder version 2, and not something that will just basically counteract heroic strike's threat by forcing you into a slower weapon. For main tanking at least, which is what I was worried about the most. As i said above, thank you for this information.

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Q u o t e:


I have a Thunderfury and TRUST ME I want to know. But holy heavens it was hard enough to get this all done. =p I'm going to get that done as soon as I can, I just have to figure out where to plug in the values!

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Nice, well good luck with those numbers =)

Thanks again for the well done report, I'll make sure to look back for future Thunderfury reports!

Awesome guide. It makes me feel a lot better about devastate after reading some of the other nonsense posts I read on these forums.

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Q u o t e:
[i]The following is an honest look at realistic values for Warriors who will be choosing to use the 41-point talent Devastate. When I began doing the math, [u]I did not think that Devastate would be great

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I stopped about here, to much tpying my eyes bleed

OMG! Well done.

Also, doesn't Devastate makes your weapon proc since you're dealing damage? A TF proc on a devastate would surely add a bunch of threat.

Very nice write up!

On your first examples for Bloodlord's and Widow's Remorse, there's a small typo:

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Q u o t e:

Devastate Damage Bonus = 254 * 0.5 = 127 + 125 = 252
Critical Strike Modifier = 252 * 1.15 = 290
Armor Reduction = 252 * 0.8 = 231

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Your math uses the correct value (290), but the 252 value is repeated. Same thing with the Widow's Remorse.

o.o-b

amazing write up dude. thanks for doing the work, alot of people will apprecate this.

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Q u o t e:
Very nice write up!

On your first examples for Bloodlord's and Widow's Remorse, there's a small typo:



Your math uses the correct value (290), but the 252 value is repeated. Same thing with the Widow's Remorse.

o.o-b

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Is end result ok beyond that? I did some copy & paste work to show the process.